Curse

LifeInfusion · Mar 10, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Paragons, Rangers (traps/spirits/pets suck), and Eles have less PVE splits (Ele splits are so minimal, other than ER + orb, you won't notice much...energy cost on Savannah's Heat from 5 to 15 is mitigated by Glyph). That's why they're less "WTFoverpowered".

AoD was split for Dervs because partywide 50 HP/sec every 4 (Lyssa's Haste + Whirling Charge), 3 (Rending Aura + Staggering Force/Dust Cloak + Pious Assault), or even 1 second (full enchant bar) is ridiculous.

Motivation has only song of restor, Ballad of restor, Finale of Restor, Mending refrain split due to PVP Paragon teams. However, even Song of Restor doesn't match up with Unyielding Aura + divine healing (without heaven's delight) and is not even close to Healing Burst in terms of flexibility of use. Each of the Paragon healing chants only gives about 2 to 3 HP regen if used on cooldown and other than Ballad of Restor they can't be used proactively so there's no advantage over AoD/Healing Burst/UA+DH+HD.

The problem with Motivation is other than Energizing Finale + shout spam there's not much going for it. The moment you start dumping serious attribute points into motivation you're not doing much in terms of spear damage (or dropping Leadership to really low levels and using Energizing Chorus or something for e-management at the cost of a skill slot). Also unlike command shouts, Motivation Anthems lower your autoattack DPS since you have cast times and aftercast. Slapping on all the restoration/heal stuff like Aria of Restoration, Ballad of Restoration, Song of Restoration is a 30 energy/20 seconds investment (before Leadership) along with (1*3+0.75*3=5.25 second time investment) and takes away half your skillbar that could be +16 to +19 spear attacks (and that's before Finale of Restoration which can only be maintained on 3 people unless you pack Enduring Harmony, which is another skill slot). Mending Refrain needs 8+ Motivation as well. Dropping in Signet of Synergy/Chorus of Restoration is additional time investment and Signet of synergy is orison-levels of healing on 10 cooldown.

A bit of math on Finale of Restor + GFTE spam (not even including TPiY):
Aggressive Refrain: every 4.5 seconds = [email protected] every 4.5 = 17.556HP/sec on up to 3 allies
Soldier's Fury: every 3 seconds (without FGJ!) = [email protected] every 3 = 26.333HP/sec on up to 3 allies
--> Avatar of Dwayna is PvE only, this was hands down ridiculous with Multi-Paragon teams in PvP.

Energizing Finale + GFTE on command paragon + TPiY on Energizing Finale Paragon (8+ Motivation):
Aggressive Refrain: every 4.5 seconds = (1 energy + 1 from TPiY) = 2/4.5=0.444 energy/sec
Add in Soldier's Fury Command Paragon = 1 energy every 3 seconds = 1/3
= 0.778 energy/sec (2.33 pips) , less than Blood Ritual ... but this is before FGJ!/Dark Fury/Mark of Fury/etc.
With Dark Fury,
TPiY = 1/3
TPiY ending on Motivation =1/3
GFTE on Soldier's Fury Command=1/1.5
=1.333 energy/sec ...which is 4 pips (1 pip for 5 people, 4 pips for the 3 people with Energizing Finale). Not that bad considering you only need 8 ranks in Motivation (at least for maintaining on 2 people) and recast of Energizing Finale every time it ends. It's a 3 skill slot investment in total (GFTE,TPiY,Energizing Finale), although TPiY is elite.

If we run a 2nd copy of GFTE on the motigon then it becomes more interesting:
TPiY=1/3
TPiY end=1/3
GFTE on motivation= 1/2.25
GFTE on Command = 1/1.5
=1.778energy/second = 5.333 pips for 2 to 3 people (4 with Enduring Harmony)

Command's "Never Give Up!" can't be used offensively, but versus AoE/degen that puts people under 75% HP you can push 5-10 energy every 15 seconds.

Skills I want to see changed (for starters) include:
* It's Just a Flesh wound (+energy return based on Leadership if you remove a fleshy condition or deep wound)
* Finale of Restoration (strong with multi-paragons, almost useless elsewhere)
* Energizing Finale (ridiculously strong with multi-paragons)
* Lyric of Purification (Pure was Li Ming makes this suck badly)
* Lyric of Zeal (useless with balanced teams because most builds don't use signets often enough)
* Energizing Chorus (substitute for leadership in low leadership motivation builds & multi-paragon builds; useless else)
* Chorus of Restoration (broken with multi-paragon teams, otherwise a self heal)
* Song of restoration (lowered recharge to 15, reduced heal to [email protected])

If you look at command, there's a bunch of skills that aren't useless but niche.
Situational: "Brace Yourself!", "Can't Touch This!", "We Shall Return!", Godspeed (use with Orders), Song of Concentration,"Never Give Up!", "Never Surrender!"
Physical Heavy groups/with spirit spam: Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Weariness, Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Guidance [Elite] (technically unlinked), Crippling Anthem [Elite]
Melee heavy/NPC buff: "Make Haste!"

Kirzath · Mar 10, 2011, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Paragons can provide physical pewpew at the same time as party buffs. That's their main strength which you should focus on, as a paragon player. They're not designed to be 100% backline with heals that can match monk/rits/whatever. They're support characters that chuck spears for big damage.

DRGN · Mar 10, 2011, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirzath

Paragons can provide physical pewpew at the same time as party buffs. That's their main strength which you should focus on, as a paragon player. They're not designed to be 100% backline with heals that can match monk/rits/whatever. They're support characters that chuck spears for big damage.

And this is there biggest problem: they can't do BOTH at the same time. If you're using a Chant or Finale or something(you had to resort to using a party of 4 Paragons to defend it being useful...)you're not attacking, and vice-versa. That, and even a full buffed Spear isn't "big damage" compared to other buffed characters; even at range, Barrage is going to be out-DPSing the crap out of you, and good luck beating a melee character with SoH.

And on the subject of Motivation, except for the relatively uncommon party-wide degen(in which case there are still better options than a Paragon), whatever damage the Motivation line is healing could have just been prevented in the first place by SY.

Gabs88 · Mar 10, 2011, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Other than Imbagons, there's not much to especially like about Paragons - I don't find them to be especially better or worse than other classes. My main complaint with Paragons is that every freakin one of them has to wear a white skirt.

Or a Wedding Dress ^^ which looks infinitely better!

_Alice_ · Mar 10, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I really love all the people that obviously don't know how to play classes so they bash them. A human ranger is worth is weight in gold and can fill multiple rolls in a party better than any class imo. Having said that, Heroes make horrible rangers since it actually requires tactics to play one. Similarly, Paragons can be equipped to fit almost any situation and greatly help a party. And heroes do well as parry's too. Everyone says that their elite choices are horrible, but how many classes ever use more than a hand full of elite anyway? Ex: Necro uses Discord (lame) SS (maybe SV from time to time) and BiP in certain dungeons...

My advice, stop going to PVX wiki and judging a class because there is only one "Meta" or "great" build listed. I mean they list some builds as great that flat out stink. Give the Parry a roll!

Kelfer · Mar 10, 2011, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

my advice, stop going to pvx wiki and judging a class because there is only one "meta" or "great" build listed. I mean they list some builds as great that flat out stink. Give the parry a roll!

Yup, how true. A lot of the hype around characters roles seems to come from the mindless use of Meta builds. Play the game in DoA and you really gonna need a good Para. A decent ranger is also mighty helpful there. Nuff said.

Don't bash until you've really understood that class and it's available options!

Just take a look at the amount of skills out there. The combinantions are almost endless and there's always a spot for a Ele, Ranger or Para who knows their trade in my party

Anyone tried a hero Para w. Defensive anthem???? No, I bet a lot haven't !!!

DRGN · Mar 10, 2011, 09:25 PM // 21:25

I would like to address Alice's post, but it's hard to address a post that says "you're all bad because you're not as super awesome creative as me and pvx sux omg!!!!" with no actual substance at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelfer

Yup, how true. A lot of the hype around characters roles seems to come from the mindless use of Meta builds.

Gee, I wonder how things become meta. Could it be because they work? You people honestly act like everyone has been living in a cave the last 4 years not examining skills and only deep thinking, "creative" people like you all can enlighten us.

Quote:

Play the game in DoA and you really gonna need a good Para.

You realize, like, 99.9% of Paragons in DoA are the imbagons you're treating like a cancer, right? Not really helping your case.

Quote:

A decent ranger is also mighty helpful there. Nuff said.

Don't bash until you've really understood that class and it's available options!

And what if the reason people are bashing it is BECAUSE they understand the class and all the others that do things better?

Quote:

Anyone tried a hero Para w. Defensive anthem???? No, I bet a lot haven't !!!

Probably because Aegis doesn't take your elite slot and you can use attack skills under it at the small cost of being vulnerable to strips.

So basically, all these very creative, "intelligent" thinkers think the Paragon is just fine. Okay, guess we don't have to worry about buffing it at all. Let's work on something else, then. Like getting rid of this notion that meta = bad.

Slowpokeking · Mar 10, 2011, 11:28 PM // 23:28

I still remember before those PVE skills came out mot my para sucks in PVE, the only good thing is they got heavy armor and no energy cost rez that can strenghten the team when bad situation happens.

But IMBAgon is good enough.

LifeInfusion · Mar 10, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

So basically, all these very creative, "intelligent" thinkers think the Paragon is just fine. Okay, guess we don't have to worry about buffing it at all. Let's work on something else, then. Like getting rid of this notion that meta = bad.

Whoever thinks Motivation doesn't need a buff (or "rebalance") is delusional. It's ridiculous with multiple paragons (see the above for energizing finale/finale of restor spam), and mediocre at best with a single paragon.

The echoes/anthems (which is basically every skill in motivation except Signet of Synergy, "The Power is Yours!" [Elite], "It's Just a Flesh Wound!" [Elite], Leader's Zeal, and Inspirational Speech) have aftercast so your spear damage gets cut in half or something like that. In total, only 2 skills which are both elite, don't cut damage down. And only TPiY is worth running on a Paragon primary over a Necro.

Haggis of Doom · Mar 10, 2011, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Like getting rid of this notion that meta = bad.

Meta isn't necessarily bad. What everyone is saying, however, is meta isn't necessarily good either.

A few examples before you say I'm not presenting anything concrete either:

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/any_Generic_Healer

The only meta monk build has no prots? Seriously?

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:N/Rt_SoLS_Healer

100% inferior to SoS/resto. Just look at the elite suggestions.

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Rt/any_Spirit_Spammer

Pain + Anguish (+ Painful Bond's contribution) > Splinter + Ancestor's Rage?

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_Discordway

Spikes make you feel good and makes the caller bar slightly smoother to use. That's about all that's good with this.

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_Sabway

Yes, Sabway is/was solid. But it's outdated. Among other things, it has a N/Rt healer (see above). Jagged Bones < AotL or support elite (Empathic Removal etc). And once the N/Rt healer is replaced by a SoS/resto, the SS necro isn't really doing much. An Ineptitude mesmer would beat it literally on all it offers.

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_UA/HB_Mimicry

You can do much better with 2x dedicated backline. Which you shouldn't be running anyways save for a few elite areas.

DRGN · Mar 11, 2011, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Whoever thinks Motivation doesn't need a buff (or "rebalance") is delusional. It's ridiculous with multiple paragons (see the above for energizing finale/finale of restor spam), and mediocre at best with a single paragon.

The echoes/anthems (which is basically every skill in motivation except Signet of Synergy, "The Power is Yours!" [Elite], "It's Just a Flesh Wound!" [Elite], Leader's Zeal, and Inspirational Speech) have aftercast so your spear damage gets cut in half or something like that. In total, only 2 skills which are both elite, don't cut damage down. And only TPiY is worth running on a Paragon primary over a Necro.

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Meta isn't necessarily bad. What everyone is saying, however, is meta isn't necessarily good either.

That can be true, although I was referring more to meta in the game itself rather than what PVX labels(although I could probably show you two good ones for each questionable one you posted). I think part of the problem is some of those builds got rated so high BEFORE those shitty options got added in. When I first saw it, it only had WoR/Xinrae's/Icy Veins(SoS wasnt buffed yet); those Blood Elites(Ravenous, the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO?) are bad. In my experience, N/Rt heroes still work fine because I've noticed Xandra Spirit Siphon herself down to 0 WAY too many times to be comfortable with because Heroes don't understand how it works. I think addressing the rest of the builds would be going off-topic because it would be a BIG discussion.

I disagree that "everyone" is saying what you said. My point was, there's a big difference between criticizing meta builds on substantive grounds, as you did, and just blanket condeming all meta builds. The type of people I'm referring DO bash meta builds solely for being meta. I encounter them far too often in-game: They bash on everything from SoS to Shadow Form(in the SC context) to imbagons, refusing to use them and making fun of other people for using them solely because they're overused or "not creative". I don't understand WHY people do this because I'm not a psychologist, but they do..

Racthoh · Mar 11, 2011, 10:02 AM // 10:02

I'd be happy to see Angelic Bond brought back to its former glory as well as "Incoming!" for PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Probably because Aegis doesn't take your elite slot and you can use attack skills under it at the small cost of being vulnerable to strips.

Any character using attack skills doesn't really need Defensive Anthem. Warriors haven't run Tactics' stances for a long while now, and even low armored Assassins flail away without need for evasion. Still, while your melee runs into range to start smashing things that Defensive Anthem will stop some incoming damage without the fear of stripping. Enchantment stripping is also quite present in elites zones. From a PvE perspective anyway, in PvP Defensive Anthem had to be balanced to a 2 second cast because it was too good.

KotCR · Mar 14, 2011, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Angellic Bond these days seems to be nothing more than a poor man's Divine Intervention. It's cast time limits its usefulness, and it uses an elite slot. I realise it can't be removed like Divine Intervention can, but considering you can cast Divine Intervention almost instantly, you can wait till the last moment before using it anyway, minimising the chance of it's removal. The same can't be said for Angellic Bond. If the cast time on Angellic Bond offsets the fact it can't be removed, it has no other real advantages and so should not be an elite (it may affect all allies in shout range, but it ends after it triggers on just one anyway - which brings with it other disadvantages too, as it may end up triggering on the wrong ally).

As for Crippling Anthem, actually I think it's okay. I can see it fitting well enough into some team builds in PvP (Ranger teams? Save a slot on multiple characters having to bring their own cripples), and in PvE it works great alongside a Spirit Spammer (seems all spirit attacks are attack skills, they will all cause cripple). Plus at only 4 adrenaline cost, it translates into effective Energy Management, even with the cast time.

Command isn't too bad these days, but many Leadership Skills could do with some help, Spear Mastery is mediocre at best, and Motivation could do with a total rework.

Also, what's the deal with Burning Shield? Why is it the weakest of the defensive Shield skills?

Warrior's Shield Bash blocks an attack skill, knocks down the foe, and disables their attack skill. Three benefits.
Dervishes' Shield of Force blocks an attack skill, knocks down the foe, and causes weakness to all adjacent enemies (I take it affecting all enemies is the advantage it gets for being removable, instead of just one enemy). Three benefits again.
Paragon's Burning Shield blocks an attack skill, and causes Burning. Only two benefits.
It does not cause knockdown. It should (a few seconds of burning are not better than disabling a skill), which would bring it more in line with the other skills...and too actually make it a somewhat viable alternative to Shield Bash on other professions that want to use another Paragon skill on their bar. More importantly, it'd also give Paragons themselves an effective self-defense skill in PvP then, as it'd give you a chance to kite. The burning is the least useful function really, and is more of a bonus than anything else. Right now it isn't worth the slot, as even if you block an attack skill, the Warrior/Assassin/Dervish can immediately carry on beating on your squishy 60AL anyway (yes, 60AL, seems you will almost certainly be under Agg. Refrain or Soldier's Fury).

I'm afraid I had to bring that up. It's been bugging me for so long.

pingu666 · Mar 15, 2011, 03:59 AM // 03:59

60 +16 +insig?

its annoying that motivation rubbish in a general group, only really worth it in a multi paragon team

so whats left is command and leadership, and you really need to take gfte, 90% anthem of flame. theres very little build variety

KotCR · Mar 16, 2011, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

60 +16 +insig?

Doesn't count, seems that's exactly the same as a good Monk, Ele, Ritualist, Mesmer or Necro (well they may have 60 +15 +insig but it's practically the same). They are still squishy, regardless of that, as are Paragons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

so whats left is command and leadership, and you really need to take gfte, 90% anthem of flame. theres very little build variety

Yeah, this is the other thing I hate the most, half your skill-bar is pre-determined. You have to have either:
1 - Agg. Refrain or Soldier's Fury (an elite)
2 - Anthem of Weariness or Anthem of Flame
3 - GftE or TPiY (an elite)
4 - A Rez (generally in PvP, it'll be expected of you).
5 - Spear of Lightning or Vicious Attack (to trigger your Anthems to stop AR going down if you are being denied adren).
This doesn't really leave many slots for customization. Compounding Motivation's uselessness even more, seems it just isn't worth putting points into it for only 2 skills from it.

LifeInfusion · Mar 16, 2011, 03:05 PM // 15:05

You don't need anthem of Flame with Soldier's Fury...it's not an upkept shout/chant. SYG/SY is more like what you need. I get by with just SYG and Fall back on my hero paragon with aggressive refrain.

For PVE you're gimping yourself if you don't bring spear of fury (adrenaline based builds),IAS, and TNTF. Spear of Lightning / Vicious Attack are nice on heroes but I'd rather bring Spear of Fury over Vicious Attack if there are other sources of deep wound.

KotCR · Mar 16, 2011, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

You don't need anthem of Flame with Soldier's Fury...it's not an upkept shout/chant. SYG/SY is more like what you need.

I realise that, in which case you'd bring SYG (not SY, well, at least not for you, as it only affect other allies) or Can't Touch This...but seeing as I was talking PvP you wouldn't be talking SYG either as that's kinda useless there (the whole ends on movement thing...). Can't Touch This use is pretty limited there as is, seems as it only affects you in PvP.
But I was generally giving my examples assuming you'd be using Aggresive Refrain usually, naturally you'd replace Anthem of Flame/Weariness with Can't Touch This for Soldier's Fury.

Spear of Fury would be subbed in instead of Spear of Lightning/Vicious Attack in PvE, but like I said, I was talking PvP in particular...hence no PvE only skills mentioned.

In PvE actually, your bar is just as tight though. You don't have to bring a Rez so much, but you will have to bring There's Nothing to Fear instead. The rest remains pretty much the same with the exception of the mentioned substitutions.

The point is, you have to bring half these skills not for the skills themselves, but just because you have to bring them to make the other skills work, and that's the bad thing.

All this as mentioned contributes even more to why Motivation generally isn't useful. There's just not enough room on the bar to make the skills viable even if they were half decent in a non-yelloway team.

Even if they don't make drastic changes to the way the profession works (though they really should, the concept itself of the profession is somewhat flawed if balance is to be maintained).

There should at least be two 4-adren non-shout shout options for each leadership, motivation and command - just so you can slightly bring those skills because you actually want them for their specific effects, not just for their casting numbers.

There should also really be at least one (but once again preferably two) 5e cost, 10ish sec length, 10ish sec recharge chants for each of the three ability lines on the Paragon. Command and Leadership both have one, but Motivation is lacking (instead forcing you to take up two skill slots and trickily juggling the expensive Ballad of Restoration with the equally expensive Aria of Restoration/Song of Restoration - even more tricky in PvP because of the 30sec recharges on each of those skills there).

At least this way you'd have at least some say in what went into your build.

Or the other alternatives, are to move GftE to leadership, or of course to give Paragon some more IaS options that don't need so many other set-in-stone skills to maintain.

Personally, once again, I just think a complete rework is in order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

For PVE you're gimping yourself if you don't bring spear of fury (adrenaline based builds),IAS, and TNTF. Spear of Lightning / Vicious Attack are nice on heroes but I'd rather bring Spear of Fury over Vicious Attack if there are other sources of deep wound.

In PvE for deep wound on a Paragon you're better off bringing Find Their Weakness anyway since the bonus armour ignoring damage is so huge (and it can be applied to any of your allies instead of just you also if you want)...and it combos nicely with Spear of Fury too for a massive opening spike with huge adrenaline gain.
Unless of course you are not using Command. But of course you are, as you are generally forced to bring GftE unless you want to use up your elite on The Power Is Yours.